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36. Let's Talk about (Blind) Sex (feat. Laura Millar) - 18+

  • Writer: Marissa Nissley
    Marissa Nissley
  • Apr 3
  • 19 min read


Resources

Connect with Laura!


Disability & Sexuality 


Books:

  • Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life - Emily Nagoski

  • Come Together: The Science (and Art) of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections – Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski

  • Pleasure Activism: The Politics of Feeling Good – adrienne maree brown

  • The Country of the Blind: A Memoir at the End of Sight – Andrew Leland

  • Disability Intimacy: Essays on Love, Care, and Desire - Alice Wong

  • Interabled: True Stories About Love and Disability from Squirmy & Grubs and Other Interabled Couples - Hannah Burcaw and Shane Burcaw


Accessible Sex Education:


Virtual Telehealth, Contraceptive, & Counseling Resources: 


Transcript



Marissa: Blonde & Blind has a diverse audience. While originally intended for people who are blind or have low vision, this podcast has garnered some listeners that I did not expect, like my grandma, my parents' friends, some ophthalmologists that I've never met, and even my boss who decided to internet stalk me when I joined his engagement.


And you may be wondering, with this wide variety of listeners, including my employers and extended family, why I would want to make an episode about sex. And the reason is, I think that there are unique challenges that people who are blind or have low vision face that we just don't talk about. 


Part of it, I think, is just discomfort around the topic of sex as a whole. But then there's also this tendency to infantilize people who are blind, to assume that they aren't interested in living independently, having their own jobs, entering relationships, or having sex. But blind kids grow up, and this is an important conversation to have. After all, blind people in rural or suburban areas can't simply drive to a CVS to pick up birth control, or drive to the doctors to get STI testing. And remember those cringy graphics and videos your health teacher showed you? Some of us couldn't see those. 


Beyond all of that, communicating your needs and feeling comfortable, confident and sexy in your own skin can be much more complicated for those of us with low vision. Today, Laura Miller, a certified sex educator who also is blind, will be joining us today to share some of her insights. And while we can't possibly get to everything, I'm hoping we start a broader conversation and make people more comfortable talking about these issues that impact our lives.


So let's talk about blind sex.


Intro Music


Marissa: Welcome back to another episode of Blonde & Blind. I'm really excited to have Lara with me here today. Thank you so much for joining us.


Laura: Thank you for having me, I'm really excited to be here with you.


Marissa: So for those of you who can't see, when I first learned about Laura, I found her website and she has a really cool logo. It is an anatomically correct clitoris with a white cane. So do you wanna talk a little bit about what that symbol is and what it represents to you in your consulting services?


Laura: Yeah, so I am blind and a sexual health professional in the blind community. And a large part of the work I do is not only trying to have this conversation with the blind community, but also providers, sexual health experts, people that might work with or interact with blind people in the field of sexual reproductive health.


And so I found myself in a group of, in a workshop of about 60 folks and they were all sighted. And I was part of a panel to talk about the need for accessibility and sex education. We were all there from different perspectives about what was important. One of my goals was to educate the audience about the lack of sex education for blind folks, the lack of accessible sex education in particular. And this was in 2016, 3D printing models were still fairly new. 


I held up an anatomically correct 3D model of a clitoris to the room. And for your viewers who may not know what an anatomically correct 3D clitoris is, in my opinion, it looks like it should be a Monsters Inc. character. It has a little head, which is the clitoris that most people know, the part that is visible. But underneath that are long cura and arms that go deep into the vulva. And they are full of nerve endings and extend the pleasure and the ways we receive pleasure. 


And when I asked in the audience who knew what this 3D model was that I was holding up, only two or three people knew. We were all there to have a conversation about accessible sexual health, but even people, with vision, did not know that that is what the anatomically correct clitoris looked like. 


So I shared that it wasn't just blind folks that needed these models. It was everybody that needed these models. And I advocated not just to have a blind student sit at the front of the classroom with a desk full of models that are just for them and nobody else, but to find and use models that enhance the learning of everyone in the classroom, just like this clitoris model had. And when I left that workshop, I knew I wanted to turn it into a sort of Monsters Inc character, if you will, and add a white cane. I basically turned it into my sort of sex education superhero. I made it my logo and I'm very proud of it. I think it's very cute.


Marissa: I hope one day you make 3D models of them and sell them.


Laura: I think that's a great idea. We have lots of things in the works, but that's definitely one of them. Thank you.


Marissa: I think what's really powerful about that is not just the clitoris but also the white cane next to it. Another thing I think a lot of listeners might wonder initially is “what would blind positivity and sex positivity have to do with each other?” We typically think of those issues as two completely separate things.


Laura: I am so glad you asked that question. Like I said, I acquired blindness in my early 20s and came to the community a little bit later in life. But for the first 13 years, I actually wanted nothing to do with blindness. I had friends in other community. I went to school. I went to grad school. But I avoided the blind community. I avoided using my cane.


I really didn't want anything to do with that part of my identity. And I didn't know that I was deep in my internalized ableism, that idea that disability was less than or inferior or somehow something that I needed to now mourn as opposed to a full life to be lived. And I didn't realize how harmful those messages were.


And so, like I said, I was going to school and I was getting my education. I got a master's in public health and I went on to get another degree in sexuality. And after I finished that degree, I came to the blind community about nine years ago now, and I thought I was bringing sex positivity. I thought I was bringing accessible sex education. I thought I was bringing a really empowering conversation and I was, except I didn't know how much I still had to change my perception and my thinking around blindness. 


And so what happened is the more I started to have these conversations, my then boss and now coworker in the Blind Sexuality Access Network, Lisa Maria, I used to write workshops for her. And I would say, do sex education workshops for people who are ‘suffering’ from blindness. And she would say, “we're not suffering. Yes, it might be challenging and all of these other things, but it's actually society that's the barrier. And it's advocating for ourselves that we need to do.<“ And she just started to reframe blindness as not the issue that was holding me back. And I started to learn about ableism. I started to learn how deeply ingrained I had adopted these ableist beliefs.


And my work started to align much more with a positive philosophy towards blindness that aligned well with my positive philosophy towards sexuality and sexual health. And it really was by merging those two things together that I feel like I became a whole person. I had thought I was sex positive, but until I embraced my identity as a blind person, until I truly felt empowered with that cane walking down the street. I didn't realize how much more of the journey I had to go.


Marissa: I think people are scared to talk about both blindness and sex. So having this radical shift and being more positive about it, embracing it rather than treating it as something that needs to be hidden, that's the elephant in the room, I think is really powerful for people, regardless of their ability or their sexuality. And I think it's also a celebration of our autonomy, right? Like I said, people tend to assume that those of us who are blind or disabled aren't fully functioning adults, that we aren't living independently, that we can't make our own decisions and live the lives we want to, but we can. And part of living the life you want is engaging in sex if that's what you want.


Laura: And in thinking about having this conversation with you and like why blindness and sexuality, why this is important, I think that so many times the conversations that we approach in, if we have them at all with disabled folks, are around the risks associated with sexuality. So a lot of those conversations might be talking about sexually transmitted infections or unintended pregnancies or avoiding harm. And all of that is really important, but that is also a challenge that all of society is facing when it comes to sexuality. If we just stay in the conversation about risk, we don't actually move into what full autonomy looks like. We don't move into conversations around pleasure or navigating consent. 


And so I feel like when I'm talking to parents, teachers, or educators of the blind, I'm really encouraging them not just to recognize we need to have these conversations, but to focus on what we do want for blind people. We do want them to negotiate conversations around their sexual health and STIs. We do want them to have planned pregnancies and reduce the incidences of harm that we've had in our community. We want them to be able to negotiate and talk about pleasure. We don't want it to be this taboo thing to say, “can you move your finger a little bit to the right? Can you, a little less pressure?” But we don't have that conversation. We say, “do you have your condoms? Have you talked to your healthcare provider?” I think we need to be looking at the whole person and the whole picture is that we are raising people who can grow up into autonomous adults that can have these conversations and have fun.


Marissa: It's really important just to acknowledge, for blind and disabled folks, we have the right to create our own path. We deserve happiness and pleasure and to build sustaining relationships with those around us.


Laura: Yeah, I think you mentioned in the intro around stereotypes. That to me is my first 13 years of journey with blindness. It was adopting those negative stereotypes. These were parts of sexual ableism I didn't even know that I was going through, like wondering who would want to date me. There was the belief that because I'm now blind, I'm less desirable.


Well, I now know that that's complete nonsense, but I didn't know that I had adopted society's messages. I didn't know that those messages were rooted in decades and centuries of ableism. I didn't know that there had been laws passed to prohibit blind and disabled people from leaving their homes. I learned about the eugenics movement and all kinds of things to just stop the existence of disabled people. 


And so the more I learned about why I had adopted such negative messages, the easier it was to start realizing, “oh, that one doesn't serve me. Let's get rid of that one. That one doesn't serve me.” And before I knew it, I had sort of rewritten a very different story for myself. And community was a huge part of that. Like I said, I was very isolated for those 13 years. But once finding community, positive community, specifically in the Bay Area for me, the National Federation of the Blind and my local chapter, I got so much encouragement. 


Marissa: Another stereotype that I wanted to talk about that we haven't really discussed is this idea that the only way you can explore attraction and desire is visually. I mean, we live in a very visual culture and I think that there's this assumption that if you can't look at pornography or if you can't look at somebody's body, then you must be asexual. You must not have any sexual attraction.


Laura: So when it comes to nonverbal communication, we hear a lot in the blind community, “well, how am I supposed to know they're interested in me? I can't see them looking across the bar.” Or a sighted person can walk into a room and start just flirting with somebody or whatever it might be. And I understand that it takes a lot for blind people often to even get into the room.


I will just pause for a minute and share that a large part of the work I do is teaching folks about ableism and sexual ableism. And when I have those conversations, they say to me, “we're far away from sexuality.” And I understand that in some regards, but if I can't get blind people comfortably out of their house, we were talking about rideshare discrimination, and to that date, and thinking of all the things that they've had to go through to get there. And now we're adding the layer of not being able to see. That for some people is just so overwhelming, they're not gonna leave their house. 


But I encourage us all to go a little bit of a layer deeper and realize that that isn't how it works for sighted people either. Yes, they may not experience quite so much ableism or microaggressions when they go out of the house, but they are going through their whole sort of list of insecurities and excitements and different things in preparation for walking into that bar. 


But also when they get there, there's much more than just the visual component. We just don't talk enough about the tone, the sound of voice, the proximity, if somebody is leaning in, how short the conversations are, how they're answering. We don't talk about consent or even ask if there's a group of people there, “hey, would you mind if I join you in this conversation?” And so if we're not talking about how to just feel comfortable in our body and we're not removing, it's all about blindness. We're not getting into the more nuanced conversation. And I just, again, I think this is where we could spend hours talking, but encouraging people to recognize that that perception “I can't see them, I won't know if they're interested” is a form of sort of internalized bias and where can we go a level deeper or a level beyond so that we can make that genuine connection.


Marissa: A lot of my listeners are in the 18 to 24 range. They're at a point in their life where they're just starting college or their first job. They're experimenting with living independently, moving away from home. And I know that this age range is a time when a lot of people start thinking about or experimenting with sex. So I know this is a really broad question and you can't possibly get into everything. But what advice overall do you have for people, my listeners, who are interested in exploring their sexuality but might be a bit nervous about it.


Laura; Yeah, so I think in some of the workshops that I have done with transitional age youth, we have conversations around values clarifications. And to unpack that in other terms, we're basically, we're talking about the values that they grew up in and in their family values and recognizing the importance in the role that that plays.


Also acknowledging that as we grow, as we mature, we are forming our own thoughts. And sometimes those may go against our family values or they may differ. They may cause contention, all kinds of things. And that process is normal. It is something that a lot of people are going through. And so I think when we can get into community and have these conversations with youth and transitional age programs, we can help them think about what they might want to do. 


So I will give one example of a youth that we were talking about hugging. We were talking about the fact that you don't actually have to give people a hug if you don't want to, that this is a part of consent and you have autonomy over your body. And this person was from another culture and they mentioned that you try telling their uncle that they're not gonna give them a hug, that they don't want to, that that would be very disrespectful. And so understanding all of that and understanding their cultural dynamics there. We were able to help the teenager talk through their values, the level of autonomy they want to assert and what risks might be there as they do so. And also the level of influence they have over that uncle. Is that a relationship that they want to change? Is that a relationship that they want to leave behind? Is that a relationship they can avoid? Basically helping them think through what would make them feel more empowered in those conversations moving forward. 


So I know I talked a lot about family just now, but as we grow up, we realize how much of our family's values we've adopted and how much we need to figure out for ourselves what is important.


And so some resources to do that. 


I know that when I went to university—and recognizing not all of your listeners will, but if you have the chance and you are a university or continuing education to take a sexual health education class. It is unlikely that you would have received as much information in a high school or community setting as you will in a college setting. And it will often count for one of your undergraduate credits. So I encourage people to take sexual health classes. I encourage them to take advantage of the fact that most universities or colleges will have sexual health clinics where you can actually go get birth control.


Marissa: Yes, that's an invaluable resource.


Laura: Yeah, you can get condoms and birth control and even referrals to other clinics. I know that a lot of high schools, and again, it's quite a controversial conversation around the country, but a lot of high schools either have resources or can point folks in the direction of resources. And then there's some other things that folks do need to know. And I know that we are living in some rather uncertain times and sexual health is a very hot topic button conversation. But I do know in states like California where I'm at, that minors are able to go to their doctors without their family's consent or permission and get care around their sexual health or reproductive health needs. there's lots of free or low cost clinics out there.


Marissa: An interesting layer for us too is that not all of those free clinics are accessible to us.


Laura: Definitely. Yeah, so accessibility is another issue, right? We have the access for the information that's being provided and then also being able to get there. And I will say that one of the things that the pandemic very much helped with is this 

availability of telehealth and also services through the mail. 


There's way too much to go into on this call, but if there are blind people in areas of the country that are information desert or support deserts, I encourage you to reach out to our organization. We actually have a grassroots team at info@blindsexualityaccessnetwork.org. And we can pass along resources for folks on mail-in care, whether it might be for birth control. I'm not sure if you're allowed to talk about abortion care on YouTube. If not, please delete that. But we can provide all kinds of services, resources to services that people can access if they don't have that availability to go in person. We are in the process of incorporating, and so we don't have all of those resources up and available for people on a website or anything like that yet. Please follow us our progress as we grow because that will be the place that we will be able to post resources specifically for blind folks who are having a hard time accessing information.


Marissa: Absolutely, and I think another point that's really helpful for people in this age range is to find that disability community and it helps you build confidence in so many different ways. And one of those ways is people that'll be like, “yeah, you're hot.” You know, slap those stereotypes about disability and sexuality in the face who acknowledge that, like I said at the beginning, that you are a human living a full life and you deserve happiness and pleasure and autonomy. I think it's really powerful to find people like that because for me growing up in high school where I was the only blind kid, oftentimes I felt like I didn't have that sense of community and understanding and empowerment. It's one thing to be tolerated in a room, it's another thing to be embraced and accepted.


Laura: You know, I think about that a lot. In large part, I think because my favorite age to work with is this transitional age. And being 23 when I found out I was blind and then spending 13 years in denial and not wanting anything to do with the blind community, I keep wondering what would have had me find community earlier. I understood that there was a camp for the blind, but I wasn't one of “those,” and I'm putting it in quotes.

blind people.


Marissa: I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way when I was growing up.


Laura: And that is ableism. And I think the fact that we don't, as a society, even talk about blindness being a spectrum. And some blind people can't see anything. And some blind people have 20-20 central vision. They just might not have more than 20 degrees of peripheral vision. We don't talk about that. And so you feel unique. You feel different. You feel out of place. But when you get into a community, when you get to those camps, you realize that you do belong, that you do fit in. But in my case, I found a conversation. I'm sex educator out there in the world, and there is so much work to do. I have such an incredible thread of support and people wanting to engage in this conversation and go deeper in like this podcast here. And so this, this just didn't happen when I was spending 13 years thinking blindness was the worst thing that could happen to me. And when you feel more confident, when you do work through, I understand it's a journey because it was a many year journey for me to fall in love with my cane. But when you walk down the street with that level of confidence because it's your favorite accessory, that shows. That shows and it shows up in your love life and your dating life and in how you go through the world. 


And again, I do want to share it as a journey. It is not something that just happens overnight. And also I want to acknowledge there's lots of people who grew up in supportive families who don't internalize such negative messages. And it is less likely that they would have also had such supportive messages around sexuality. So wherever you are on the journey, I'm excited we're having this conversation. And I think it's an important one.


Marissa: And I love what you said about your cane being your favorite accessory. Because I'll be the first, I'm probably not the first to say it, but if I am, I don't care. I think a confident woman walking down the street with a white cane, that is pretty sexy.


Laura: I'm completely with you on that. And I remember the day, I remember the day viscerally that I was walking in the sun down a hill and swaying that cane from side to side and I felt sexy. And it wasn't just me as a whole person feeling sexy. I felt sexy because of the cane and the confidence I had and just that whole journey I had been through. And so…I'm with you, I'm with you. And maybe if enough people listen to this and adopt these positive philosophies around blindness, they'll get there too.


Marissa: So before we wrap up, is there anything else, any particular resources? There's going to be a whole page of resources related to this episode topic. Is there anything, any last things you want to share about you or your organization?


Laura: Yeah, I just encourage people to follow us. are on Facebook. We're a little bit sleepy there because, like I said, we are actually working on transitioning into a nonprofit. But please follow the Blind Sexuality Access Network. We will be having a host of different things that we do in the community. Upcoming is conversations with parents, teachers, and educators at the California Transcribers and Educators of the Blind Conference. We'll be talking about incorporating consent into everyday conversations, whether it's orientation mobility, whether it is home management.


Marissa: That's so important, especially when some big people think it's okay to grab somebody because they have a cane.


Laura: Exactly. And I think that when we have those conversations and we have them early and we reinforce consent and we model how we want blind people to have agency as they go through the world, that translates to better sexual health and better sex lives later on down the line as well. And so the more that we can just have these conversations early on, the better.


Marissa: Well, I definitely recommend following. Your website Laura Miller consulting is also a. a really good resource. And one last note I'd like to leave is that it's unfair that we have to advocate for ourselves so often and that we have to develop these stellar communication skills. But I think that's something that you can use to your advantage in all areas of life. And I think my blindness has made me a better advocate, a better leader, a better communicator in both my personal and professional life. And that also applies to sexuality. I had no choice but to advocate for what I need and what I want.


Laura: I think that that is very well said. And if I can add one more resource that I'm encouraging everybody I know to read, although I can't remember the name of the author, so hopefully it will be in the show notes, is a book called Pleasure Activism. It is a compilation of short stories written by all kinds of folks about incorporating more pleasure into our lives, into the work we do, and even just how to be more embodied in disabled bodies in a way of pleasure. And so I just highly recommend it right now because the more we can break down these barriers and celebrate pleasure and celebrate blind pride, I think the better we're all going to be. So I'm really glad you said that.


…


Marissa: Well everyone, that was Laura Miller. I hope you enjoyed our conversation today and if you did and you want to learn more, I highly recommend checking out the resources listed in the show notes below this episode. Like I said at the start, we couldn't possibly get to everything, but we have plenty of books, podcasts, and other resources that can help you if you want to learn more.


I also highly recommend checking out Lara's website, laramillerconsulting.com, and that's Miller with an A, M-I-L-L-A-R, not E-R. Anyway, if you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe to Blonde and Blind on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and anywhere else you get your shows. You can also stay up to date by following me on social media at blondeblindgirl.on Instagram and Blonde & Blind on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. You can also check out my website, blondeblind.com, which will have the show notes and transcript for today's episode. Thank you all for listening and I hope to see you soon.

 
 
 

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